This is a continuation of the theme of yesterday's article. But first we will look one reader's comments on yesterday’s article. I will add some comments, too.WHAT OUR FRIEND JONATHAN HAS TO SAY
Jonathan comments,
“As a libertarian, I think we may agree on "the separation of School and State," in a first best world (or perhaps vouchers in a second best world). However, alas, we don't live in that world, and I don't think we will for some time.
"I suggest you study my blog in detail. As I noted, I'm libertarian, not a member of the ACLU-left. So I come at this issue from a nuanced middle ground position.
"I think you aren't getting much needed facts about our Founding Fathers from the likes of Wallbuilders.
'The most prominent of our Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, and likely Washington, who is a hard case because he was quite mum about the specificsof his beliefs) were in fact theological unitarians and universalists. Though, not like todays UUs who support left-wing causes. But, make no mistake, well before 1776, unitarians and universalists had taken over the Congregational Churches in New England.
"Our Founders did believe that "religion" yielded necessary "morality." But, as universalists, they believed practically any religion, even Pagan and Eastern ones would work. And that such "infidel" systems taught the same Truth as Christianity and were thus valid ways to God.
"Of course, they couldn't utter most of this publicly (but did so privately). So they spoke in broad generalities in their public addresses. You never hear men like Washington saying things like "you can't govern without God and the Bible" (a quotation Wallbuilders falsely attributed to Washington) but rather things like "religion" provides society with indispensable support for morality.”
I am having a little trouble grasping the idea of “separation of school and state” especially since we are talking about public education approved and sanctioned by the state. I will do as you suggest look more deeply at your blog to try to glean some truth from your point of view.
I would like to know what you mean by “religion”. There were many more individuals than those five or six that you apparently are saying were not true bible-believing Christian believers, but Deists or Unitarians. Even if that were the case, and I am not accepting that until I delve deeper into a study of the founders. However, there were still many others who were godly, true Christians who exerted great influence on both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution and the subsequent government that was established.
My hypothesis is that the majority of our Founding Fathers were true bible believing, God-fearing, bible-practicing Christians and thus much of the initial structure, function, values, principles and laws upon which our nation was founded was in recognition of Almighty God and based on the Judeo-Christian principles and precepts found in the bible. I also suspect that there has been and continues to be a movement to purge to revise much of our early history to cast doubt or even to outright remove all recognition or attribution of Christian influences.
WHAT THE PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY SAY
Here is what one liberal leftist group, People for the American Way (yeah, right), feel about one of the groups that I mentioned in yesterday’s article,
“Religious groups such as the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools have attempted (in some instances, successfully) to introduce Bible classes in public schools under the guise of improving students’ understanding of literature and history. But, more often, the real intent of the organization is to promote a religious, primarily Christian doctrine, within public schools. (Emphasis added)
”While it is lawful to teach public school students about the Bible as part of a course on religions or cultures, teaching religion by proselytizing, or attempting to inculcate students in the beliefs of a particular faith, or teaching religious subjects from a sectarian viewpoint, is unconstitutional. Constitutional requirements state that public schools must remain neutral toward religion and cannot endorse religion generally or any particular faith specifically.
I do not think teaching a course on the Judeo-Christian Bible is unlawful. Offering state-certified curriculum on the Bible in our public schools is of great educational value. To understand the bible is important to understand American and World History, Literature the Art and Social Sciences. Why is the PFAW, Americans for the Separation of Church and State (AU) an the ACLU so opposed? Is it because they care nothing for the true education of our children, but are more interested that the children receive proper indoctrination in the principles and precepts approved by the Political Correctness and “Tolerance Totalitarian” elite?
”People for the American Way strongly supports teaching students about world religions, including the role that religion has played in history. Such instruction can and does take place in any number of classes, such as courses in comparative religion, the history of religion, world history, and American history. But it is unconstitutional to teach students the content of the Bible as historical fact. As the courts have made clear, there is a right way and a wrong way for public schools to present the subject of religion and related topics. In the past, PFAW has worked with the First Amendment Center and the National Bible Association to create a constitutional model for how public schools may teach about the Bible in an objective and secular manner that neither promotes nor inhibits religion. We will continue to support such positive learning experiences within public schools nationwide.”
I ask why not teach the “Bible as historical fact”? We certainly teach evolution as scientific fact, which takes greater faith to believe some of its assumptions than does even faith in a personal God.
WHAT GEORGIA DEMS SAID ABOUT TEACHING BIBLE IN SCHOOLS
In a January 19, 2006 article in the Atlanta Constitution Journal entitled, “Bible Study Class Pushed for Schools” Bridget Gutierrez writes:
“The proposal . . . only authorizes the state board, which is appointed by the governor, the option of creating one --- a move the Democrats say is necessary to protect school systems that choose to teach the classes.
"This is not about teaching faith. Teaching faith is up to the parents, not the public schools," said Golden, the lead sponsor. "But teaching Bible literacy is so important because . . . the impact of the Bible on literature, arts, music history and politics is woven into the very fabric of our society."
“Policy and legal experts say educators long have been confused about whether teaching the Bible in public schools violates the so-called separation of church and state. But they say bringing the holy book into the schoolhouse is perfectly legal.”
This may have been done by the Democrats in Georgia as a political strategy; nonetheless, it is encouraging sign. As I said yesterday, I would love to see every American student have an opportunity to take one elective Bible class during their high school career. This would be a great preparation for life, intellectual development, and participation as an American citizen.
I just believe that the government should get out of education altogether. It should teach neither religion nor evolution, nor should it forbid, discourage, or encourage any viewpoint. Just leave it up to parents to decide how their children are going to educated. Get rid of the public schools, privatize most state colleges and universities, and use no tax dollars for education. Let each parent pay for their own child's education.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say separation of school and state I mean exactly what Matt has written.
ReplyDelete"My hypothesis is that the majority of our Founding Fathers were true bible believing, God-fearing, bible-practicing Christians...."
I've studied the history in detail and the best you can assert is that the overwhelming majority (almost all) of the Founders, like Thomas Jefferson, were formally affiliated with a Christian Church. No one really knows the breakdown of who was a real devout Trinitarian Christian, v. an Enlightenment rationalist or Deist. We do know however, that the key Founders -- the ones who played the most important roles in leading the newly formed nation and explicating the ideas upon which the Declaration and Constitution were based -- were not Christians but Enlightenment rationalists.
"...and thus much of the initial structure, function, values, principles and laws upon which our nation was founded was in recognition of Almighty God and based on the Judeo-Christian principles and precepts found in the bible."
The ideas contained in the Declaration and Constitution have little if anything to do with the Bible. The Bible may have helped shape people's sense of personal morality, but it didn't give us our "Founding Principles" because it could not. That's why the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers do not cite the Bible (which they would were they based on the Bible).
"I also suspect that there has been and continues to be a movement to purge to revise much of our early history to cast doubt or even to outright remove all recognition or attribution of Christian influences."
Certainly, historians on the left have taken things too far in cases. For instance, they are outright wrong if/when they assert all or even most of the Founders were strict Deists. But you aren't going to get the historical truth from the likes of David Barton, just one set of myths replacing another.
Re introducing prayer and teaching the Bible -- would you support teaching the Book of Mormon as historical fact in the public schools? Now, in 49 out of 50 of the states, it might be hard to must a democractic majority for that proposition. But we know in one state they certainly could.
Sure, give the public schools the right to pray and teach the Bible. Some schools, maybe in Alabama, might satisfy you. But you are more likely to see school administrators constructing a "multicultural" prayer to be read over the loudspeaker every morning where Jesus is mentioned along with Buddha, Allah, and Hindu Gods like Ganesh and Pagan Gods of the Earth.
And btw, that would completely accord with what our key Founders, like John Adams believed -- that all religions contain the same Truth as Christianity and were valid ways to God.
Hi Matt -
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your comments. I agree it would be best to get government out of our schools. Yes, it would be a good idea of getting rid of public schools, or at least downsize them and get rid of the non-performing schools right away. Encourage and support alternatives. I would favor keeping some public education, but not ruled by secular humanism . . .
For now we are stuck with our schools, they need to be reformed and we need to introduce the bible into the schools similar to what I wrote about. However, all the time working for encouraging parental involvement. Ideally, it would be great for everyone to home school or send their students to private schools. I think there is a place for some public schools, but make them more like they were in the 19th century where real learning was going on . . .